“We recently did a session with the secretary of defense and we are going to stand up a joint interagency task force” focused on thwarting drones, Gen. James Mingus, vice chief of staff of the Army, said during an event Wednesday co-hosted by AUSA and the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Counter-unmanned aerial systems (C-UAS), as it is known in DOD parlance, is a key challenge for the military. Commercial technology has evolved in recent years such that drones on the civilian market are extremely cheap to buy and simple to operate. It has also become less challenging to 3D print parts and devices that can fly.

This has made it significantly easier for nation-states and terrorist groups to procure these types of systems and strap bombs to them, allowing adversaries to level the playing field against higher-tech combatants such as the U.S. military.

The C-UAS challenge has existed for about a decade as insurgent groups in the Middle East began acquiring these systems and targeting American troops, marking the first time since the Vietnam War that U.S. service members didn’t have full control of the skies and faced an aerial threat on the ground.

The Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict a few years ago was also a global watershed, serving as one of the first instances where drones helped win a war.

As has been seen in Ukraine, both Kiev and its Russian foes have taken to using first-person-view drones as missiles, turning the battlefield into something more akin to World War I-style warfare where troops are limited in movement due to the risk of being seen and shot on the battlefield.

The Ukrainians have perfecting the use of these capabilities, leveling the playing field against the Russians — whose military was much larger and possessed significantly more firepower — by taking out tanks with FPV drones.

“One junior sergeant in the 47th Ukraine mechanized brigade, he got the Order of the Gold Star and Hero of Ukraine [awards] because he is credited [with] 434 enemy killed, 336 enemy wounded, 42 tanks destroyed, 44 infantry fighting vehicles, 10 tracked amphibs and 20 armored personnel carriers all destroyed in a five-month period. He is a first-person-view drone pilot,” Lt. Gen. Dagvin R.M. Anderson, director for joint force development on the American military’s Joint Staff, said at a special operations symposium hosted by NDIA in February. “That is what he brings — the lethality of about a division. I mean, that is an incredible record.”

Similarly, the Houthis, a group backed by Iran that has controlled portions of Yemen, including the capital, since 2014, have been executing a multi-year on and off again onslaught against commercial and military ships transiting the Red Sea as a protest against Western support for Israel’s war in Gaza against Hamas.

While most of those drones were neutralized, the U.S. military is losing the cost-curve battle by using million-dollar missiles to defeat large numbers of inexpensive UAS.

Mingus equated the C-UAS challenge today to the effort to counter improvised explosive devices during the Global War on Terror. Insurgents began fighting U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq with remotely controlled roadside bombs, to great effect, catalyzing a joint and interagency effort by the United States called the Joint Improvised-Threat Defeat Organization. The nation also mobilized with great speed to produce Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles, which saved countless lives.

Mingus offered few details regarding the new counter-drone task force, but noted it’s something officials have been advocating for a while.

“We need an organization that is joint, interagency, has authorities, a colorless pot of money and the authorities to go after from requirements all the way through acquisition in a rapid way to be able to keep pace with that. We are in the process of standing that organization up and get it going,” he said. “The Army is going to lead it, but this will be a joint organization to be able to deal with joint solutions in the future. We’ve been trying to advocate this for some time now, and the secretary recently made the decision to allow us to move out on it, because we cannot move fast enough in this space.”

As part of the Army’s budget request this year, it has sought to add a new agile line for C-UAS, along with UAS and electronic warfare, to be able to keep pace with emerging technologies and changing battlefields.

“Once we think we’ve got it figured it out, then the adversary is going to come up with something and we need … to be able to evolve. This is not going to be a static environment. It’s got to be something that’s moving at the rate in which the technology is moving on the other end,” he said. “Instead of like we have done in the past, where we’ll buy a system and buy that same system for 20 years, we’re going to have to have both the flexible funding to go with it and the agility to [acquire] whatever is out there that will deal with the threats today, in the next year. It may be something different. We’ve got to have both the authority and then the funding flexibility to be able to switch to whatever that solution is going to be for the next year.”

Part of the challenge for C-UAS is there isn’t a mature commercial market akin to the UAS market, meaning solutions need to be bespoke and purpose-built.

Mingus said countering drones requires a layered approach.

“No single solution. It’s got to be at every level. It’s got to be layered. Every squad’s got to be able to protect itself, all the way up to formations that provide higher-end capability,” he said. “There’s going to be a multitude of solutions — long, short and close in — that are out there.”

He added that officials want a combination of lasers, high-powered microwaves and interceptors, which will be key to driving down costs.

“Interceptors that continue to come down in cost, so that the price point between shot and what the adversary is doing … has to be in line. We can’t shoot a $130,000 missile at a $1,000 drone. We’ve got to get the price points down. But there’s an interceptor role that’s out there,” Mingus said.

The Army currently leads the military’s Joint Counter-small Unmanned Aircraft Systems Office, or JCO. Mingus on Wednesday did not flesh out what the relationship will be between the JCO and the new counter-drone task force.

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Next Generation Command and Control — the state of the Army’s future network and the service’s number one priority for modernization — has been billed as an entirely new way of doing business with a clean-slate approach rather than continuing to either bolt on or work within the confines of existing systems and processes. NGC2 aims to provide commanders and units a new approach to information, data and command and control through agile and software-based architectures.

A prototype of the system was recently tested at Project Convergence at Fort Irwin, California, in March.

As part of that updated network architecture and approach, service leaders are envisioning the elimination of single- and two-channel radios for troops on the ground. In their place will be what the Army calls end user devices, which are Android devices that are strapped to soldiers’ chests and have typically been reserved for team leaders.

These end user devices feature position and location information. They can now also enable communication using emerging voice-over-IP technology.

“The fundamental difference [between the existing network and NGC2] is in that data and transport layer because we are convinced that if we get that part right, there will be a day when our soldiers, instead of carrying … the batteries, the multiple radios that are out there, it’s an end user device at the edge and that is all that they’re going to need for the next fight,” Gen. James Mingus, Army vice chief of staff, said Tuesday at an event hosted by AUSA. “No more radios, no more batteries, because all I’m carrying is an end user device on the edge.”

A separate official clarified that the tactical level, battalion and below, is where the Army envisions eliminating single- and two-channel radios. Higher echelons will still need larger pipes and thus will still require radios.

Mingus explained that while the cloud storage and edge compute and storage is more refined, the terrestrial transport layer for data is something the Army will have to smooth out over the next year.

In the future, instead of using individual radios, forces will move radio frequency signals from point A to point B through “pucks on trucks,” Mingus said.

“Anything that moves, it’s got a puck on it that emits, it’s bringing in the long-haul comms, and then it’s establishing that terrestrial-based mesh through a series of pucks that are on the battlefield that then connects to the end user device,” he said.

The Army has been on a radio journey for many years, trying to determine the right mix, at what echelon certain capabilities are needed and even exploring if an as-a-service model makes sense.

Some in industry have noted that there’s a massive shift going on within the Army from what worked in the recent past to a penchant for something completely new — and it’s not clear to some industry members why that’s the case.

The approach of eliminating radios in favor of voice-over-IP, WiFi or 5G pucks to provide transport is puzzling to some observers. They warn it could put the Army at risk of not having a diverse enough architecture for what officials call PACE, or primary, alternate, contingency and emergency.

In future operating environments against sophisticated adversaries, enemies will seek to jam or deny communications and data access across certain waveforms and parts of the spectrum these systems operate on. Thus, it is important to have a diverse set of transport to where units can fall over to still conduct their missions and pass data if one system fails or is jammed.

“To see such a drastic shift, to say that Next Gen [C2] doesn’t include any forms of radios, I think it puzzles a lot of people … It’s a head scratcher,” an industry source said.

They added that while the networks support the push-to-talk feature that can be enabled through the end user device and voice-over-IP, there needs to be a mix of different capabilities and radios.

“Most of us still believe that you need flexible architectures, which include a mix of radios perhaps,” the industry source said.

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That strategic intent is shaped by his experiences as a soldier and special operator — and commanding at every echelon, from company to division.

“When I left the conventional Army in the late 1990s, early 2000s, there wasn’t a lot of information technology in our formations. There were a few things that had been digitized, but not to the scope and scale that we have today. And so, I left and kind of moved into the Ranger [Special Operations Forces] community for about a decade, where I was exposed to folks like [retired leaders of Joint Special Operations Command Army Gen. Stan McChrystal and Navy Adm. Bill McRaven] who really pushed the technology envelope. They could see where it was taking us as a military, and so there was a lot of investment in that technology, which allowed us to have a global network — getting after the fight that we did, from Fort Liberty — Fort Bragg — all the way to the Middle East and that network-of-networks,” Mingus told DefenseScoop in an exclusive interview.

“Then when I came back to the conventional Army in the 2010-2012 timeframe, I realized just how far behind the conventional Army was in the complexity that we had built into our networks and our IT systems,” he explained. “There was a recognition that we could do much better.”

Mingus received his fourth star on Jan. 4, when he was sworn in as the Army’s No. 2 general officer and principal deputy to Army Chief of Staff Gen. Randy George. 

The proud Iowan started his military career in 1981, and since then he’s deployed a dozen times to Iraq and Afghanistan, commanded the 82nd Airborne Division, and, among many other roles, led the Mission Command Center of Excellence at the Army Combined Arms Center.

“It’s in charge of the Army’s network and is the force-mod proponent for the tactical network. And the other part, which was luck and timing, was that Gen. Mark Milley was our 39th Chief of Staff of the Army, and he decided that he wanted to fix the Army’s network. So, to his credit, we put a lot of energy behind it, and the network modernization strategy that we have today is what we’re kind of driving to fruition,” Mingus said.   

Now, as he helps run the Army as vice chief, Mingus is keen to see the military accelerate its delivery and convergence of assets, data and technology platforms. This aim was on display March 20, when DefenseScoop accompanied Mingus on a day trip to Pennsylvania for a tour of the Scranton Army Ammunition Plant. 

There, welders and other hands-on workers are ramping up the making of 155mm metal artillery parts — with a newly stated goal of increasing their production to 35,000 per month by Sept. 25. 

As Ukraine and Israel increasingly tap into the U.S. arsenal, the Army is hustling to produce approximately 70,000 to 80,000 155mm rounds per month by the end of 2024, and 100,000 per month by late 2025.

“What I was most impressed with — and we talked a little bit about this when we were on the [factory] floor — is that they’re investing in new technology, but they’re also capitalizing on the stuff that they have. And so instead of completely divesting of it, that which they can still salvage, they’re renovating that and making use of their legacy platforms too,” Mingus told DefenseScoop.

Invested in the mission

The munitions plant in Scranton is one of 23 such facilities inside the Army’s organic industrial base.

“We have depots that rebuild equipment, we have others that produce small arms. I mean, it’s a whole host. And so what we saw was a very micro piece, but there’s a broader architecture out there that provides a ton of services for the Army and the other services that we are now realizing that we need to continue to invest in and modernize across the board,” Mingus said.

Owned by the federal government and operated by General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, the Scranton plant has been in the spotlight recently for receiving millions in Pentagon funding to surge its production capacity of artillery shells.

“Everybody is very invested in the mission — they get it. When we do have senior leaders come here, they always engage the workforce,” a senior official from the contractor told DefenseScoop during the tour.

The ammunition plant has hosted multiple civilian and military leaders in recent months.

“Had [Gen. Mingus and his entourage] come last week, you would have seen something completely different. If he came next week, again, different. So yeah, I think what he saw versus people who have come to pass is a significant amount of progress,” the senior official said.

In order to drastically boost production, the contractor intends to expand and modernize its line production capabilities, hire more employees and build new facilities to accommodate that growth.

“[There won’t be] AI robots walking around the floor, but just automated material-handling solutions. So instead of a person picking up a shell out of a machine or putting it in, you would have some sort of automated solution,” the senior official told DefenseScoop.

Between the Marine Corps and the Army, according to Mingus, the U.S. military consumes on average roughly “18,000 rounds a month for our own use.” 

“I’ve been dealing with the 155mm challenge for several years now. When the Russia-Ukraine conflict kicked off in Feb. 2020, we began to give them our 155 systems a couple of months later,” he said.

After Russia’s latest invasion, the U.S. in early 2022 shipped the first cache of M777 howitzers to Ukraine.

“And they used those to great effect and were able to utilize them in a very good way that greatly amplified their ability to be effective on the battlefield. But their consumption rates rose very quickly,” Mingus explained.

Initially, in this latest intensification of the conflict, Ukraine went through about 30,000 rounds per month. “Then, during the two big offensives, there were times where they were consuming in excess of 100,000 rounds a month,” Mingus noted.

Meanwhile, in the U.S., plants were only producing about 14,000 shells per month, given the previous surplus. 

“We had some in the stockpile, but that very quickly was eroded — and so people woke up and realized we needed to ramp up production very quickly. So, our [Acquisition, Logistics and Technology (ASA)ALT)) team, under the leadership of Army Assistant Secretary Doug Bush and Lt. Gen. Rob Collins] really went into full-gear, and we got some help from [the Office of the Secretary of Defense] and our organic industrial base,” Mingus said. 

In his view, progress observed in the sprawling Pennsylvania factory “was a result of that.”

“Between that plant and the others, we’re moving — where we were at 14,000 just two years ago, then 28,000 in this month, and in the next month we’ll press to get to [producing] 35,000 to 38,000 rounds a month. So it’s pretty amazing to see the money that we invested there is paying off,” the vice chief said.

Still, he emphasized that at this point more ammunition funding is needed to ensure that the U.S. can continue to support Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan.

That sentiment is also felt by other Defense Department and military leadership.

“We are already on a path to produce around 70,000 to 80,000 shells a month by the end of this calendar year or early next year. In addition, the department has a further goal of producing [approximately 100,000] rounds per month by late 2025. However — without further funding — we will be unable to achieve our [100,000] round per month objective,” a Pentagon spokesperson told DefenseScoop on Wednesday.

Notably, on top of generating standard 155mm high-explosive rounds, the plant is also set to supply a 155mm “boosted artillery round” known as the M1128.

While those standard 155mm munitions are “limited to about a 20 to 22 km range,” Mingus noted, the Army is now producing “the rocket-assisted or wrap-variant that puts a little rocket motor on it and it’ll shoot out to 30 to 32 km.”

The general said the simplified, cheaper variant would give the Army an additional 8 km — “just by how they are rifled and the technology associated with the round itself.” 

“And so from conventional employment of artillery, which is our greatest and most effective weapon system on the battlefield — when you’re talking about mass artillery — that [additional] 8 km will make a big difference,” Mingus said.

“The battlefield that we grew up with, we kind of parse it out in the ‘deep fight,’ a ‘close fight,’ … and ‘rear area’ or ‘support area.’ And it’s going to allow us to extend that ‘close fight,’ because of the extended ranges of our conventional high explosive rounds, which gives us an advantage because the further out that you can take out your adversary, the better for your maneuver formations inside,” he added.

Those in-production M1128s were one of multiple topics of discussion during a working lunch that Mingus participated in with plant and General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems executives. In that conversation, he asked for feedback on a number of ideas, including whether there might be opportunities in this work for collaboration between the Australia, United Kingdom and United States (AUKUS) military alliance. 

“I mean, those are all policy decisions that would need to be made between the three countries involved. But in the Pillar II portion of AUKUS, things that those three countries, all of us, can mutually benefit from — either from a technological standpoint or with co-production — those are all things that are interesting to the three countries to pursue together,” Mingus said.

Keep pace and transform

At each station on his tour across the spread-out manufacturing complex, Mingus made a point to stop and shake hands with workers on the ground and explicitly tell them that their efforts “are saving lives.” 

“When you’re working in a plant like that, in the middle of America … you don’t always see the finished product, let alone see what it does on the other end when it gets to its destination. And so I just felt like it was important to share with them that what they’re doing is critically important for our nation and for the lives of folks that are in harm’s way,” the general told DefenseScoop.

He has plans to visit more of the Army’s 23 plants in the months to come. 

But these oversight pursuits are just one small portion of his many responsibilities as vice chief — and Mingus is looking to push toward innovation and modernization beyond just the realm of weapons production.

“Everybody loves to talk about how the time is now — this sense of urgency. But when you look at the world events that are happening right now, I mean we really are at a point where doing things the old way — doing things the way we’ve always done them, the typical bureaucracy, the typical programmatic way in which we approach transformation, continuous transformation, transformation in contact — we’re going to have to break some of those paradigms to be able to keep pace and transform at a rate that is going to keep pace with our adversaries,” he explained.

Flexible funding mechanisms mark one tool he and other Army leaders are eyeing to help tackle those paradigms.

“So, using [uncrewed aerial systems and] counter-UAS — we have that program currently in a bunch of different portfolios. And then, in those portfolios, there’s multiple individual lines for individual systems, instead of broad categories of just UAS,” Mingus said.

“Say I want to buy 100 of this brand this year. But there’s a better brand that comes out next year and I want to buy 100 of them instead of being locked to that single line. Or, instead of having multiple individual radio lines, maybe you have one that allows you flexibility to move around and buy different things — because the technology is changing so rapidly that if you get stuck with a single program, then you’re not going to be able to always maximize the technology as it changes,” he further noted.

Recognizing the need “to build up trust with a lot of folks on how we would do that and how we would manage it” Mingus said he and Gen. George have decided to prioritize UAS, counter-UAS and electromagnetic warfare capabilities as prototypes to test out the first flexible funding initiative.

“So he’s going to start with those three, then we’ll expand as time permits,” Mingus said.

It’s clear he appreciates the technological progress the Army has made during his career so far, but the vice chief is still certain “there’s things out there today that we could do to improve.”

“It’s not [just about the] technology 10 years from now — there is stuff that exists today, that if we were just able to capitalize on it, we’d be much better off,” Mingus said.

When asked to provide a tangible example of such capabilities, he pointed to a recent visit he and his team paid to the 82nd Airborne Division.  

“When I was there as the commander — and they still have it — they were one of the first to employ the integrated tactical network, which people would call the ITN and the secure but unclassified environment. And they’ve just taken that and continue to evolve and improve it,” Mingus explained. 

Soldiers there have designed and are improving upon what the general said is “a mesh network out of the existing radios” that demonstrates the number of devices the Army might need in a formation could be far fewer than what’s used today. 

“One of the things they were able to do, as an example, was take and build a mesh network. So with 13 to 16 radios over 15 km front, they were able to actually establish a true mesh network. [It shows that] we may be able to find a day where you’re just taking end-user devices [like smartphones] to the edge, and you’re using other higher-end transport mechanisms that move the data instead of everybody carrying individual radios,” Mingus told DefenseScoop.

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